July 10th, 2009
Privatization
I know, I know, I probably shouldn’t get too politically reductionist, but sometimes, the mood strikes.
^ 97 Comments...
) Your Reply...
New comic every Friday and Monday!
Friends/Cool Reads
And for those who don't seem to have banners:
Magical Sordid City Blues
Art Fight High School
Dern Werks
Fleen
Maxwell Wong
Ray Yuen
Comics Queens
DC is going to Hell
Dueling Analogs
Webcomic Planet
Stale Bacon
Rexford Avenue
the Kirby Museum
WWIII Illustrated
Magical Tales of Enchated Mysteriousness
-
Latest Comics
-
Support SD&JC!
Causes (everyone’s got one)
July 10th, 2009 at 10:08 am
This is going to sound terribly insensitive but I think if someone cannot afford healthcare then they have to suffer the consequences. If government provides everything for everyone then what incentive do people have to independently make their life better? A news reporter the other day was talking to a lady who claimed she couldn’t afford healthcare. The reporter did the responsible thing and asked her about her bills currently and the lady had the audacity to say she had to pay cable and she had to pay for her cell phone and other disposable income types. The problem is not should we socialize healthcare it is should we teach people about how to prioritize the way they spend their money.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:16 am
@dj41236 That IS terribly insensitive of you to say. Do you understand how difficult it is to come by healthcare in this country? A lot of jobs need you to stay on for over a certain amount of hours for a time that can be up to 6 months! And what happens to people who get laid off or just really need the healthcare and can’t afford to wait those 6 months? My mom is often very ill and doesnt have healthcare on her own although she works two jobs (luckily she is covered on my dad’s insurance). 1 month without healthcare costs her upwards of $1000. We’re not a third world country here. People should not be dying in our streets because they can’t afford healthcare. Don’t even get me started on people who are to sick/handicapped to work, or people who have immigrated to the US and who work more for us than the average citizen who can’t afford it.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Auilix, you need to go read some Adam Smith, then look around you. The reason we’re not a third world country is because we’re free. Socialism ultimately leads to bondage…we trade some liberty for some temporary security. Give me liberty or give me death.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:28 am
@dj41236
I’m a graduate student. I don’t have a healthcare plan, because if I take the money it costs for a plan out of my student loans, I don’t have a place to live. Because I’m a full-time student, which saves me money in the long run, I can’t work a job to pay for a decent healthcare plan.
I’m clearly trying to better my life via education, so please – if you would be so kind – tell me why I “deserve” any sort of consequences resultant of my situation.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Free is debatable. Are you saying we are free with our rights? Gay people might not agree with that. Free as in free time? Cause I would like some of that and some of the most socialist countries like France or Sweden have way more free time than we do, encouraging mandatory vacation time from jobs (as a result, increased production! who knew having happy employees is more productive than having miserable ones tied to their 9-5s?). You’re just being close minded if you think we are any more free than other first world countries.
In terms of security, I’ve never felt threatened by anything or fearful of “terrorism” and I’ve lived in the NYC region all my life. I’ve never believed that fear propaganda anyway.
I would rather have my money go to helping people who are POOR and DYING. i swear in not many other countries will you have smart or upper class people who are so selfish as to not help our their fellow countrymen.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:34 am
JMF, you need to wake up. Take your extreme capitalism to its logical end, and you end up with a situation like many African nations where the wealthy are free to exploit the poor unfettered, Safety is only for those who can afford it, and the cost of poverty is often death or wage-slavery. The most underdeveloped countries in the world are the ones that have this “freedom” you speak of. The most socialist countries in the world today (Sweden and Norway) have the world’s highest standard of living and lowest crime rates. China does not even remotely resemble a communist country. It’s horrific, corrupt capitalism combined with a totalitarian regime.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Brian I work for a living would, so if you would be so kind tell me why I should pay for your healthcare?
July 10th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Brian, maybe you could try and get a job. The only people that should have any sort of health care paid for them are people that are physically incapable of providing an income for themselves. You may be in a situation that you need health care, and if so maybe you could take less classes and pay to support yourself.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:38 am
ok you deserve..nothing…nothing at all. If the goverment gives you healthcare, where does it come from? Oh yeah people who have been through what you are gong through. So the question is why should we take from someone who has worked hard for it, to give it to someone who made the choice to go to college act act. As a country we should help those who cant help themselves, that is what medicaid/medicare is for.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:39 am
Ah, you all must learn freedom is fraught with responsibilities as well! Auilix, you are free to help the poor and the dying. But I will not force you to do so. Kylie, you are free to resist tyranny. But I will not force you to do so.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:45 am
But your freedom is only for the owners of the means of production. The proletariat are condemned to lives trapped under the burdens of wage-slavery, conditioned to accept their place in the hierarchy and frustrated at every turn by the layers of bureaucracy put there by those who have the cultural and social and political and economic capital- this “freedom” is not for the masses. It is for the owners of capital, who become the new ruling elite, and you exchange one set of royalty for another.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:48 am
You guys do not realize that this socailized healt care is not the end all cure all… First off Obama wants to cover everyone that means people who dont work, illeagal immigrents even prison inmates! No thank you… if you do not contribute to society no health care for you…if you are not a citizen no health care for you… and if you are in our prison system definately no health care for you… You people don’t realize what happens with the health care system… we will still be paying for it through taxes… the average american is too stupid to understand that the government does not pay for anything it is the taxpayers-you and i- that pay for everything and then instead of paying for your own healthcare and choosing what operations you have, if the Government deems that you are too sick to live or not worth the exspense then you are shit out of luck… I agree 100% that the current health care system is this country is poor but socialism is not the answer… President Obama is a loose cannon who is seeing all of his liberal policies slowly failing and has decided to push all of his ideas through before anyone knows what hit them… the cap and trade bill that just passed the house last week!!! WHAT?!?!?! if we have global warming why has July been the coolest in almost 100 years to date?
If you people hate this extreme capitalism we have in this country you need to remember that the only thing worse than big buisness is BIG GOVERNMENT!!!
July 10th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Like auilix and brian said, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why the richest country in the world can’t afford to provide healthcare to their citizens. Nearly all of Europe and the rest of the industrialized countries can and do. What the neocons and republicans do, (who receive some of their largest campaign contribution from the healthcare companies incidentally) is convince your average middle class citizen that by giving healthcare to the poor, they are taking money out of everyone else’s pockets so the black and brown people can sit at home and do nothing and get everything paid for.
It’s a shrewd and morally bankrupt tactic as old as human civilization itself. Those in power simply keep the middle and lower class suspicious and at odds wih each other, and all are oblivious to how the upper one percent is raping everyone. Do you guys realize that if the US took a fraction of the money we spent on tax breaks for the rich who dont need them and applied it to healthcare it would pay for it many times over? If we took a fraction of the money we used to invent more effecient ways of killing human beings and maintaining our military empire it would pay for it many times over. Is that not a better use of our wealth?
It’s the same reason we are at the bottom when it comes to education in industrialized nations, its the same reason we have such a high percentage of religious people, it’s the same reason we have the harshest drug laws. It’s all to discourage free thinking, to make the populace susceptible to fear mongering and xenophobia. Wake up people.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:50 am
@JMF So… you’ll force me to monetarily support a war I do not approve of, but you won’t force anyone to help HEAL this country. Huh.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:54 am
I don’t understand why you Americans think free healthcare is not do-able. In other countries it’s not even questioned, it’s a necessity of life and so it’s provided. Even extremely poor third-world countries like India provide free healthcare. I’m a dual citizen, American and Australian, but I’ve grown up in Australia. I’d like to live in the States for a while too, to experience my other country, but I have to say I can’t relate to a mentality that can spend so much money on things like invading Iraq or a “war on drugs” and so little on its citizens’ wellbeing.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Utopian societies (including communist and socialist) are self-defeating…history shows this. The logical choice is a republic with freedom for ALL, including the owners of the means of production. Do you live trapped in “wage slavery”? Then get a different job! As for royalty, the founders affirmed the People as the true royalty. Asserting their rightful place meant some difficult decisions. Unfortunately our freedoms today are being allowed to slip away…the royalty is asleep at the switch.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Kylie, it’s precisely because free healthcare is NOT free. Someone pays for it at the point of a gun. Is that compassionate? No, it’s tyranny. You and I have a responsibility to help the poor, but if it’s forced, it’s no longer compassion. That’s why America’s founders affirmed we must be free AND good.
July 10th, 2009 at 11:04 am
JMF, isn’t that what socialism is supposed to do? Put the people in power? It’s never actually been tried. Any totalitarian regime flying under the communist banner is not communist at all. I agree that our freedoms are being undermined- and Libertarians fight more for the freedom to play financial games than for the more important, basic freedoms of humanity. I believe in Libertarian Socialism. Freedom combined with equal power. Shared resources, used wisely for the good of humankind now and in the future. Production not for profit, but for need. Our consumption-based economy cannot be sustained indefinitely.
July 10th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Just tell me, where would you rather live? Be honest now. Norway, or the USA?
July 10th, 2009 at 11:07 am
@ Kylie
How is Socialism supposed to “put the people in power” if everything… EVERY SINGLE FACET OF YOUR LIFE is controlled by the government?
that was on the most backward statments i have heard in a while
IN SOCIALISM YOU HAVE NO FREEDOM!!! THE GOVERNMENT CONTROLS EVERYTING!
HONESTLY READ A BOOK
July 10th, 2009 at 11:07 am
And check out these stats:
http://www.ssb.no/english/
July 10th, 2009 at 11:07 am
A Utopia is self defeating? Really? I assume when you say history shows this you are talking about the soviet union and/or China? These were not truly socialist countries, they were ultimately dictatorships. While true communism as nice as it is in theory may never work because of human being’s inherent greed, that does not mean that basic necessities like healthcare should be privatized as they are in the U.S.
Think about it for a minute. If one company is selling a product with the intention of making a profit, it makes sense that they would charge their customers the price of the product plus some extra on top. If a different company is selling the same product with no intention of profiting they would sell it for just the cost of manufacture. Praytell how would the first situation be any better for the consumer?
Certainly when it comes to most consumer goods, competition fosters progress and is a good thing. Companies will want to create the best product possible and sell it for as low as they can. This rationale does not transfer to healthcare. These are people’s LIVES we are talking about. It’s sickening and abhorent that profit is the bottom (and only) line when it comes to caring for the sick in this country.
July 10th, 2009 at 11:10 am
@Tony
I do read. Every day.
The answer to your question is because in a proper socialist society, the people ARE the government. There would be very little crime, and very little control over the people’s lives. Our society creates crime by creating inequality. If each person was born with equal opportunities, they wouldn’t feel the need to equal the score. Why do you feel free primary and highschool education is sensible, but not free healthcare?
July 10th, 2009 at 11:10 am
You know, I had this huge rant typed up but I realised I can sum it up in a few sentences: as a Canadian, I will NEVER move to the States for one reason: not enough socialism. Yes, I love the cheap tech but I will never, ever move to a place where I’m in danger of going into debt just for getting sick – something I cannot control. Long story short? Learn what socialism is before bashing it – the cold war is over and you can stop spouting off the propaganda now.
July 10th, 2009 at 11:12 am
Tony you are a laugh riot, seriously you should start a comedy routine. Especially good was that part about “OMG Obama will give prisoners healthcare!”, the punchline of course is the fact that prisoners already receive healthcare. Not only that but healthcare for prisoners is considered protected by the eighth amendment.
I love the hostility towards Brian too “Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, it’s the American way!” “I am.” “Well, screw you!”
July 10th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Creator: Ok guys, play nice. This is about intelligent debate. Please dispense with crazy caps and such, and enjoy the humor of each other’s points
July 10th, 2009 at 11:14 am
The reason all socialist experiments have failed is because the determination of what people “need” is up to some governing body. This is the definition of tyranny. A perfect example is the ridiculous foisting of the CFL lightbulb on everyone in Great Britain. We should let the market decide. Socialism ALWAYS leads to a very scary end. See http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/ for a very succinct explanation.
July 10th, 2009 at 11:16 am
you guys go ahead and have your socialized health care and when you are 70 years old and ill and the government decides they would rather give the money to a 30 year old person to keep them alive and you have no choice but to go to some other county to get treatment don’t come crying to me AMERICA was founded on freedom… If you want socialism move to canada but AMERICA is “the land of the free” so i want less government not more thank you very much
July 10th, 2009 at 11:20 am
A succinct video which clarifies this important issue is at http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/. Socialism ALWAYS ends up hurting those it is intended to help.
July 10th, 2009 at 11:20 am
445618 says: “Certainly when it comes to most consumer goods, competition fosters progress and is a good thing. Companies will want to create the best product possible and sell it for as low as they can”. I have to disagree. It is good business sense to make things as cheaply as possible and to sell them for as high a profit margin as you can possibly get away with. However, if there were such a thing (and it has never yet existed) as a non-profit based economy, you could make things to last forever with no thought of turnover, no need for planned obsolescence.
July 10th, 2009 at 11:23 am
If we were able to have a “pure socialist state” I would be all for it… but we are the United States of America… We have a target on our back and always will I don’t see Norway or Sweden or Switzerland being threatened by crazy Islamic terrorists everyday or threatened by a crazy North Korean dictator who wanted to blow up our Hawaiian islands… Being the USA there is no way that we will ever be able to have a “pure socialist state”… Don’t get me wrong i believe that if we could we should but it would never work in the USA. It may work for other countries because they are not the USA its as simple as that you can not compare the USA to any other country because we are one of a kind period
July 10th, 2009 at 11:27 am
WONDERFUL & THOUGHT PROVOKING STRIP BREE!
Something MUST be done-our Health Care system is out of control!
I’m a type 1 diabetic, and have been since I was a child. My insurance will only cover 40% of my insulin (I pay out of pocket & they reimburse me 2 to 3 months later) since it’s not generic, NEWSFLASH: insulin is not available in a generic version! I pay close to $124 a month for 2 bottles of insulin & only get back $49. My blood sugar test strips are marked up 900%, and I have to fight to get my test strips every month. Here’s a link regarding the markup and all that accompany it! : http://www.diabetesmine.com/2009/06/a-year-and-a-half-with-the-diabetes-monster.html
I work very hard to stay healthy and fight even harder with my insurance company to do so! Here are some examples of Diabetes Math! http://diabetesaliciousness.blogspot.com/search/label/Diabetes%20Math
Health insurance should not privilege for the few, it should be a right for the masses!
“WE THE PEOPLE, IN ORDER TO FORM A MORE PERFECT UNION,” need affordable options in our healthcare system in order to live in unison & in good health!
k2
July 10th, 2009 at 11:27 am
Tony, read this article. It’s an example of how the “freedom” experienced by your financial elite gives them power to purchase government policy in your country. In the USA, the government represents big business, not the common man. These corporations saved themselves 100 billion dollars collectively on import taxes through the lobby system. Yet such options and power in government are not available to your working class citizens, who can be jailed for failure to pay taxes. http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2009/05/03/a-jobs-act-that-created-no-jobs-a-lesson-in-profitable-lobbying/
July 10th, 2009 at 11:30 am
Fear is a powerful tool for standing in the way of progress and keeping the status quo.
July 10th, 2009 at 11:36 am
Kylie you are not understanding me… I Agree that this Government is not helping you and I… I dislike how they all let their friends get away with anything they want as long as they donate to their election fund… This government is so backwards and tainted by evil greedy people that I do not want them taking over another facet of my life. The government today announced that they plan to sped 18 million of the so called “stimulus” bill to create a website to show how the stimulus money is being spent!?!?! What?? there is no way It costs that much… Trust me I live in Chicago Illinois the most corrupt Political system in the United States of America and i see what giving more power to government has done. So basically i would be all for Socialized health care except for the fact that the United States Governement would be running it! They would find some way to get some rich people even richer off the poor average sapp guaranteed
July 10th, 2009 at 11:40 am
Kylie, this is a failure of the common man, true, and if we have the backbone we’ll rise up against it. The internet is the best tool to recognize and defeat it…and hopefully someday soon that will happen. In the meantime, let’s not kid ourselves where socialism takes us…inevitably. See http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/.
July 10th, 2009 at 11:44 am
Well I think that we have come to a place where we agree. Who doesn’t want everyone around them to have what they need? Equal access to healthcare, education, and justice, and the family you are born into does not dictate which basic needs you have access to. We can keep trying for this better world you know. Don’t get brow-beaten into just looking out for number one. Have you seen the courageous young people in Iran fighting for freedom and equality and rights? We can learn something from them. Our bureaucracy is a mess, in your country and mine. Socialism doesn’t need to mean more bureaucracy. Done right, it could mean grassroots decisions made by small communities about where to allocate resources, etc. If everyone around you has what they need, you can rest easy. Nobody would need to rob you, you could say hello to everyone you passed without the huge inequalities coming between you and making you suspicious of each other. We humans have developed very sophisticated brains. We can work this one out if we can just stop our daily money-grubbing and really look at the big picture.
July 10th, 2009 at 11:50 am
Agreed if it was possible i would be all for everything you just said… But i do not trust the USA government enough to let them even try this… They will find some way to screw it up and who will it end up hurting? You and I the tax payer
sad story
July 10th, 2009 at 11:50 am
I guess I will weigh in, even though I did sort of make my opinion vaguely known by writing this comic in the first place.
I understand positions against complete socialism. The systems in France and Germany and Canada (and the dozens of other major countries with socialized health care) are not perfect. There are issues with range of care, length of waits (although greatly exaggerated, especially in my experience getting sick in these countries). It’s not a perfect system, granted.
The system in the U.S., however, is woefully defective. Fully privatized health care is basically treating humanity as a commodity. We have built it on the notion that it is a market that can take care of itself, but it has not worked out like that.
Imagine, if you will, that it is assumed everyone needs a cheese sandwich. These sandwiches are sold by separate companies that can basically charge what they like for access to these sandwiches. In theory, market demand and supply will drive the price of sandwiches, hopefully kept at a reasonable level by the power of competition. However, most health care is provided to people in group markets.
The incentive for the insurer is that they have a pool of customers that will be beholden to their particular sandwich. The goal of the insurer is that enough people buy the sandwich and pay premiums, but that far fewer people eat of the sandwich, ensuring they have a profit in the end of the day. This is the issue, I think, with capital markets driving essential services.
What this means is that, even if you HAVE A JOB, you are not guaranteed affordable health care unless your job is part of a larger group. This also means that people who are not part of a pool, say Mrs. Smith, mother of 2, middle class, cannot get the sandwich at the same price as those in the pool. Mrs. Smith works 40 hours a week, but she works at a job that is not part of a pool, for example; she is a waitress. However, in order to get sandwiches for her and her children, she has to pay astronomical prices, as the insurer has NO incentive to give her a decent rate.
Throw in the fact that she has Lupus. Now, the insurer sees her as an extreme risk. She will not only buy sandwich, she will NEED sandwich in the future. They will not make a profit if she uses what they sell. They only profit when she buys, but does not eat her sandwich.
With this comic, the point I was trying to make is that socialism is NOT inherently UN-AMERICAN. Police, firemen, etc are SOCIALIST entities. Public funds pay for us to have a provider of such services. We do not have to pay a police officer if they arrest an intruder inter your home. We don’t pay firemen directly for rescuing us from fires. This is SOCIALISM, and we rely on it in this country every day. That is the point I am making, that the argument of socialism and Americanism being mutually exclusive is ridiculous. Imagine if we got billed every time we needed police officers?
I am a capitalist that believes in socialist services. I do not want Mao to march in and say that we are all entitled to the same iPod and no one can make a lot of money. What I do want is an equal opportunity to be saved by a fireman, helped by a police officer, and, able to get health care without going bankrupt.
Communism, as a doctor interviewed on CNN pointed out, means that the outcome for everyone has to be equal. The difference is that we want the OPPORTUNITY to be equal, and the outcomes up to the person.
If you think about it slowly and carefully, you might see the difference is all I am saying.
July 10th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Well-thought out and considered, Bree. Thanks for allowing me to participate in this discussion on your page.
July 10th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Well Put Bree and very good comic by the way
July 10th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
@James, P3tor
I’ve definitely considered it, believe me. It just so happens that more fiscal sense is made by doing a 2-year degree at this school than a 3-year degree at the other schools, especially in lieu of costs. I’m halfway through my degree already, and both years (including room and board) have and will cost less than a single year did – at the other, closer schools – whilst living at home and drawing a steady paycheck.
Additionally, my entrance into the professional workforce as a master’s student provides the economy with another higher-paid, well-trained individual who could bring a great deal of work/business/income into American hands, which would either raise your property values, the level of profitability of your industry, etc.
Over the long term, because of people like me, you could stand to gain far more than you think you’re paying (which would be pennies, or possibly a few dollars per annum) by covering our healthcare, to ensure maximum productivity. You already do the same to cover roads, public transit, the police force, firefighters, et cetera; you benefit from ease of transportation, security and safety, and so on. You may contribute a few dollars to charities, to help the cause of curing disease and treatment of afflicted individuals – this is much the same.
Remind yourselves that the root of socialism is the word “social”, which has everything to do with people, in both large and small groups. We’ve demonized the word “socialism” beyond recognition because we’re afraid of the good it can do, and called it a threat to our “way of life” – when it’s really not. It’s about the people; which, as I recall, are the very core of any nation, civilized or not. Democracy itself is socialistic – you don’t get any more of a vote than I do, as we’re equal under the American Constitution, and subsequently equal under the law it provides.
In summation, I think you should pay the hundredth of a cent out of your taxes that it’d cost to give me health coverage, because doing otherwise is inherently un-American. You DO like America, don’t you?
July 10th, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Providing free health care isn’t communist or socialist. Its just compassionate.
Letting people die simply because they are poor, well, just how “American” is that?
People don’t typically choose to get sick. Yes, it means the whole has to pay for when the few get sick, but at least, when it is needed, health care is there for anyone who needs it. It isn’t a matter of middle class being ripped off so the poor don’t die for lack of funds.
Its about anyone, regardless of income, not having to sell their home to pay for cancer treatments. Which, by the way, is what my family would have had to do, if we didn’t live in Canada. Having to choose between loosing everthing and Mom dying a painful death, well, now that would have been quite the choice, wouldn’t it? and, yes, we have long wait-times; happens when anyone and everyone can access free health care. But at least I know that, if i get sick, even if I have to wait my turn, I will get medical treatment. It sure isn’t perfect, but its better than the alternative.
It always seems that the strongest voices against free health care are those who least need it. However, putting money into free health care means more people able to work, less costs for companies who no longer have to pay out benefits.
July 11th, 2009 at 3:09 am
Incidentally, my mother-in-law is British and nearly 80. She has had several heart problems of late, and has never had to wait to receive care. She’s been very complimentary of the care she’s received (and if she was dissatisfied, believe me, we would hear about it). She’s never been passed over in favor of treating a younger person, nor treated at all badly because of her age or poor health. Instead of dealing with insurance companies or worrying about bankrupcy, she is living a comfortable and healthy life.
The horror stories are overrated.
July 11th, 2009 at 7:01 am
Check this out: http://www.lcurve.org/
July 13th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Politics discussions always end up as Trolls trolling trolls, which are in turn, trolling more trolls. Honestly, as my friend said it, “Read the Declarationof Independence.”
Let me quote for you, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.” (Taken from http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm ).
As you can see, when the government has become corrupt, we are SUPPOSED to destroy it, before it makes a mess of things, and start a new, with one that will do what a government should. Let it be Democratic, Socialist, Capitalist, Communist even, what ever it takes to clean it up. Otherwise, we’ll be signing our own death warrants, and it can only lead to something bad. I mean,isn’t that what America was trying to run away from a few hundred years ago >_>…. Now, how soon this may be, is up in the air, but if we keep up this bickering over frivolities, it will probably not end well…
July 13th, 2009 at 4:09 pm
Luz, are you planning to revolt?
I actually like these kind of discussions. In fact, the abrupt cessation of arguments once I posted my explanation made me kinda sad.
Maybe it’s because Aries are ruled by the god of war.
July 13th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
bree, by no means do I notlike discussions, but when they turn into trollfests, it puts me to shame. And no, I don’t want to revolt, it just seems like America maybe due for another one soon, if you know what I mean…
July 15th, 2009 at 7:55 am
Interesting article:
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/opinion/20090714_Unhealthy_arguments_against_public_option.html
August 9th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Geez, in Canada I just go to the doctor. Don’t have to 2nd mortgage my house. Don’t have to worry about an insurer deciding to deny coverage. You guys get up in arms over ‘socialized’ government funded education? Our doctors get paid through our national health plan, and if you need health care you just go get it. Now if this is about not wanting to pay for people who aren’t contributing to the economy, I understand why everyone is up in arms. YOU ALL just don’t want to pay for someone else’s healthcare. Deep down you know it’s true. Ask yourself when was the last time you got wound up and yelling at a town hall meeting over some idealogical principle. NEVER. It’s about not wanting to take care of others. Your health care system is about making money first. (A sick idea in Canada) ……woooooooo, someone is gonna be pissed when they read that. Why not get upset about corporate bailouts, war or rigged elections?
Honestly, I don’t think the US will have universal health care. There is such a strong mentality against it that it will fail.
August 9th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
I think maybe a lot of you anti-socialism folks should know that the US already has socialized healthcare for millions of people. I’m not even just talking about Medicare and Medicaid. Military employees and their families all receive top-notch healthcare, as well as federal employees and their families. I have the military health insurance.
But anyway, you have to see it this way: it’s an investment in America’s future. We pay for public education so that all kids have an opportunity to become productive members of society. We ought to be paying for healthcare for everyone so that we don’t have such a massive problem with people going bankrupt over medical bills. The fact is, even if you have private health insurance, you’re not really protected. 40% of $100,000 in cancer treatments is still $40,000, and who has *that* lying around? (And note, cancer treatments tend to cost a LOT more than a measly $100,000.)
August 9th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Poor people shouldn’t get sick if they can’t afford it. It’s just this kind of selfish behavior that is ruining this country. Only the rich should be allowed the luxury of getting sick.
August 9th, 2009 at 7:59 pm
Listen up guys this country is a socialist democracy whether you like it or not. If you don’t and want to go to a democracy go to france or japan or something. Without socialism, we would be nowhere and our lives would suck. We wouldnt be able to even have our basic needs fulfilled such as clean water and electricity and infrastructure. Basically thats it but without democrats and their idea of socialism we would be stuck in the 1700′s
August 9th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
jmf, all I have to say is you live in quite a delusional state of mind. You actually think that privatizing everything will help. In case you haven’t noticed, the happiest countries and the countries with the most free press and lowest rates of prison populations, among other things, have free health care for all. All you seem to discuss is liberty and freedom, yet you ignore the fact that America barely even has that in comparison to several developed countries. I am not sure of any countries that are as overrun by lobbyists and corporations than the United States. They control every aspect of your lives, and your entire political system is run by two parties that don’t even have a consistent ideology or policy.
Yes, socialism can go wrong. Guess what? IT’S NOT SOCIALISM. 99% of your economy is still completely privately owned. You keep telling others to go read up on history, perhaps you should go read up on some socialist texts and actually understand what it is. The actual socialist party in America is outraged and embarrassed that Obama is being called one because he is not even remotely close to a socialist.
Pull your heads out of your asses and realize that you are just repeating bland republican fear mongering rhetorics.
August 9th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Oh and good point on what Emma said. jmf, I wonder what are your thoughts on the fact that your money is paying for some of the most wonderful health care for terrorist prisoners at guantanamo bay?
August 10th, 2009 at 3:42 am
ok here is my take on this. Helping the poor get health care is a good thing everyone agrees on this ( i hope). How ever the method is what is being debated. My problem with the government “helping” is that it is not voluntary. Every one in this country is free to donate to charities. If everyone really wanted to help they could donate to a charity that helps poor people receive health care. How ever the solution being put forth is to have the government force people give their money to the government, to “help” people. Ignoring the moral aspect of ill mention the practical aspect. Why give to the government who will skim off at least half of the money to help the poor when you could give money much more directly?
This is the problem I have with government solutions. Besides the moral problem of coercion (the only moral relationship between people being a voluntary one) is that it is such a waste. Any one with any sense of reality knows that the government is the most inefficient system possible. This is just a number out of the air but I would guess about half of the money “given” to the government gets put to work the other half just gets eaten by a bureaucrat somewhere. however in a perfect (free) system the incentive is to get as much of that money to work as possible. I think one of the problems we have is the employer based insurance system. It makes it much harder to get insurance as an individual. it also moves the incentive of the insurance companies away form pleasing costumers as they deal with them much much less directly. The employer is a middle man that i think would be eliminated in a true free market system.
On another note there seems to be a TON of confusion about what socialism is. Some people here seem to be anarcho-socialists. and some seem to be “normal?” socialists. Based on what has happened in history socialism requires a big government that has to control your life. While I think that anarchy wouldn’t really be socialist, I don’t really have any historical evidence. So I guess my main point is that people seem to think that they aren’t taking money from others but giving it to themselves. (penn and teller reference). And now it is sleepy time, I look forward to peoples responses.
August 10th, 2009 at 3:48 am
@BOB
Not even close to 99% of the economy is private. I would guess it is closer to half. What is your definition of socialist? I think it would really clear things up for everyone if we all defined the terms we are working with. If not we have no idea what anyone else is talking about. I guess I should say that I consider both parties in this country to be full of fecal matter. Although right now I like the republicans more because they arent in power, lol.
August 10th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
I’m a democratic socialist & I love this =]
August 10th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
I know no one is going to listen to this, but I’m from that godless, frozen, socalist, wasteland known as Canada and it’s really entertaining to hear what Americans think will happen when you get free health care.
It’s really entertaining.
August 11th, 2009 at 1:03 am
Interesting facts and ideas from all, definitely saw some different viewpoints on here, some of them disappoint me. Screw it, a lot of them do just from the ignorance they show. If this bill passes, you are NOT going to lose your private healthcare guys. No one is going to take that away from you. Your premiums will be going down, the only people who can expect to see any kind of potential increase will be the 5% of Americans who are not in a group plan, those who pay for themselves.
So, I’m in a graduate program at college as well, and I am also without health insurance. If I got my legs chopped off by an axe-wielding maniac (the way I spout my liberal views in this hicktown its not that weird of a possibility lol) tomorrow, I’d be done for. Luckily I have no assets for them to take. If any of you with group plans had to pay for your own insurance you’d be fighting for this bill as hard as the rest of us. Having health insurance shouldn’t be considered a luxury. I’ve done quite a bit of research, because I enjoy being able to present some facts along with my “rhetoric”
Anyone who considers America the richest country in the world is way far off, and anyone who thinks that our current system is the best out there is a complete whackjob. Look at some statistics, countries with a socialized system (which is NOT what we are going to) outdo us in life expectancy, quality of life, quality of care, infant mortality rates and several other categories. If our system is so good, why is this happening? Why do we watch as our loved ones are kicked out of the ICU because the insurance company has paid all it wants to pay?
And you want to talk communist/socialistic approaches, and paying for someone elses healthcare…what do you think happens when you don’t use your health insurance? If you go a year or two without using it…GASP…SOMEONE ELSE DID
What you are doing is paying into a communal pool where it is doled out to those who need it. Now instead of someone making a profit off of that pool, how about that money stays there to do as much good as possible? Just as thought and some random ramblings 
Awesome comic!
August 11th, 2009 at 1:04 am
Aww….why’d I get the angry avatar? I’m the nice guy lol
August 11th, 2009 at 1:34 am
A lot of you seem quite confused. The current American health care system is hardly privatized as many of you claim. The government has been involved in the health care industry since the 1970′s and as a result prices have gone through the roof. If you want a good example of what American government health care is like take a look at the Veterans hospitals which are totally inefficient.
Many of you claim that the current plan by the Obama administration is not a government takeover of the health care system and that people will be able to keep their private insurance and so forth. This is true. However, the Obama health care plan will certainly lead to a government takeover of the health care system down the road. Why would anyone trust the government with health care, education or anything else? It boggles my mind.
In a free market health care system like the United States had prior to the 1970′s no one gets turned down. Whether they have the money or not people who need to be treated will not get turned down. These days as a result of government managed care there’s so much red tape via that a lot of people get turned down. People mistakenly blame the free market but the fact of the matter is we haven’t had a free market in this country for quite some time.
August 11th, 2009 at 1:41 am
I’d also like to add that government run health care removes competition which eliminates technological advances in medicine which were quite prevalent under the American free market health care system. We definitely need health care reform in this country but the solution is not more government involvement.
August 11th, 2009 at 8:17 am
having a government-run health care system would not remove the private sector just as having a government-run postal service did not remove the private sector
August 11th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Well, seeing as my boyfriend, who has Type I diabetes, can’t get health care from any insurer under 200% of his income, I tend to think our system is flawed. He has to go to a doctor and is afraid to, because the one time he ended up in a hospital (when he HAD health insurance), the insurer REFUSED to pay the $10,000 bill because of his “pre-existing” condition.
It’s not even the poorm that are the main concern here. They can usually get medicare. The main worry is for the middle class. Once you make over like $15,000 a year (and that’s before cost of living), you can’t get medicare, but you also are nowhere near able to afford $500 a month for insurance.
The American dream is supposed to be about entrepreneurism. We are encouraged to go out and do what makes us happy, so to speak, and work hard to make money. The problem is, however, if you pursue ANYTHING outside of a large corporation that has market power, you don’t have health care.
Meaning, if you are working 50 hours a week at a small newspaper and getting paid $30,000 a year, you can’t get health care. Your small firm of excited start-ups don’t have market power enough to be attractive to the insurance company. The insurers are in the business of making money and you, as an individual, are a liability. They want 100 people’s premiums before they want to dish out for one of those 100 to go to a doctor.
What the current system says is that if you don’t go work for Ford (and they have lousy insurance), you’re fucked. If you open a cafe and pour your heart and soul into it, you had better not get sick, because the cafe is an asset that can be seized if you get an infection.
What we, as those seeking for public care, want, is to make sure that the cafe owner and the small-time reporter and the comic book artist and the freelance accountant and your mother can get access to health care. We want a government option to exist who doesnt have ulterior motives. We don’t want CEOs deciding who lives or dies. I mean, they HIRE people as auditors whose sole function is to DENY claims! Check out the interviews of former insurance workers. Go look!
August 11th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
“the cap and trade bill that just passed the house last week!!! WHAT?!?!?! if we have global warming why has July been the coolest in almost 100 years to date?”
Wow. That’s one of the most ignorant statements I read on this thread. We are losing our seasons due to Global Warming. The summers will be cool and the winters warmer. ‘Read a book’
August 11th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
It pisses me off that the French and almost everyone else in Europe, Canada, Japan, and Australia has a better health care system than we do and for less money!
Acccck!
August 11th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
It pisses me off that America pays far more for healthcare than anyone else, yet we rank something like 38th in over all health.
August 11th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
Alright Action, lets see some facts. First, saying that it will “certainly lead to” government run healthcare is fallacy. Just because you and Glenn Beck think that doesn’t make it true. And even if it does, you claim that it will eliminate technological advances…So why are we so far behind on the international playing field? WE are not the ones doing experimental surgeries, WE are not the ones developing new techniques. Look at the various limb transplants going on in other countries, and you think we are the cutting edge? C’mon buddy, open your eyes a little bit. I dig this country we live in, but I’m smart enough to admit that we are not the leaders anymore, and haven’t been for some time. We need to get back to that position.
And just to throw a little snark out there to any right-wingers…When I complained about the Iraq war, I was told that if I didn’t agree with where this country was heading I should get the fuck out…I’m now cordially offering that same invitation to ya’ll
August 11th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Naughty, Carter.
August 11th, 2009 at 8:30 pm
Meeeeee?! Never! (I really do think that my avatar makes me look worse than I actually am)
August 12th, 2009 at 1:56 am
Carter-
I never said that we were on the cutting edge of medical technology. I was trying to explain that we USED to be back when we had free market health care before the government started to get involved back in the 1970′s. It’s due to government regulations that we aren’t able to perform experimental surgeries or develop experimental drugs. I’m well aware that this country is not a leader in health care or really much of anything else anymore. Our country is fucked up beyond belief. I just don’t think that getting the government more involved is going to help the situation.
August 12th, 2009 at 2:01 am
Also, who the fuck is Glenn Beck?
August 12th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Ugh…I’ve got this same debate going on like 9 different sites lol…Stupid Stumble…So if getting the government involved isn’t the answer partner, what’s your solution? No matter what people say about the government, or capitalism, or socialism, or communism or whatever-the-frick-else-isms, people in this country are dying without healthcare. Thats not right. Majority of insurance plans now don’t cover preventative care, can drop you in a heartbeat, and charge ridiculous amounts of money. Why should there be a profit made off of the sick and dying? Sorry for the lack of wit, its too damn early lol.
(Glenn Beck…I’d like to be able to say he’s the son of satan, but he’s not that good)
August 16th, 2009 at 11:14 am
wow some of your comments are shocking…i can’t believe how clueless some people are in this country..
August 18th, 2009 at 10:10 am
The comic does not make sense. It is like reading a garfield comic with the basic jist centering about the fact that there is no gravity on earth.
Privatization always yields better results and even in socialized services like fire departments, police and roads.
However none of this matters since the author does not even know the difference between federal and local governments.
August 18th, 2009 at 10:22 am
Bree–
Well, seeing as my boyfriend, who has Type I diabetes, can’t get health care from any insurer under 200% of his income, I tend to think our system is flawed. He has to go to a doctor and is afraid to, because the one time he ended up in a hospital (when he
HAD health insurance), the insurer REFUSED to pay the $10,000 bill because of his “pre-existing” condition.
It’s not even the poorm that are the main concern here. They can usually get medicare. The main worry is for the middle class. Once you make over like $15,000 a year (and that’s before cost of living), you can’t get medicare, but you also are nowhere near able to afford $500 a month for insurance.
The problem you see here is because the government subsidizes general insurance providers. Plus we have a lot of money introduced into the system through Medicare and Medicaid. Why don’t you look back at how healthcare used to be. Catastrophe insurance 30 years ago used to cost 15$ a year. That means if you got cancer, are in need of surgery or anything big you would be covered 100%. There was no basic insurance back then, people would just go to the doctor and pay for general visits out of pocket. That cost them 10x less then it costs now.
August 18th, 2009 at 11:15 am
I would like to point out that one of the reasons that health care has become so expensive is because of the relationships between doctors and insurance companies. Did you know that insurance companies have negotiated rates with the doctors that their plans cover? Insurance companies pay less for your health care procedures, prescriptions, etc. than you would pay out of pocket if you didn’t have insurance. Seems a bit backwards to me…
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I HAVE insurance. I work full time & I still pay hundreds a month for a crappy insurance plan with a $2,500 annual deductible. That means that should I get hurt not only do I have to pay for insurance every month, but that insurance doesn’t kick in unless I get so messed up that I spend 2.5K out of pocket…and not all my health expenses are counted towards that amount, only the “covered” expenses. And yet…I’m one of the privelaged ones who has some sort of coverage. Go figure. Our healthcare system needs serious changes.
August 18th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Interesting comic in a similar vein http://www.slowpokecomics.com/strips/teabaggers.html
August 18th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
(brakes squealing)…Did I hear that right? That you believe services such as Fire//EMS/Police should be privatized? I’ve been a Paramedic for about 10 years, and that is the last thing you want to see. You really want a private police force? Hahaha…of course! Your probably a big supporter of all of our overseas contractors, after all, look how well KBR, Halliburton, and Blackwater have done for us. KBR’s electric sink? How many soldiers have been electrocuted over there?
Privatization is not the way to go, a FOR PROFIT entity controlling our safety and wellbeing in our homes, I’m interested in hearing your defense of such an idea.
August 18th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
Folks, JMF is most likely an insurance acolyte, paid to try to inject controversy wherever and whenever possible. They do that to confuse the discussion because they are scared to death of the health care bill passing.
The rest of us caring folks agree that without universal health care, America is just as uncivilized as a 3rd world country, and to be a proud part of the civilized world we need to look after the common good of its citizens.
August 18th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
Besides, the world has judged that pure communism and pure socialism is evil. But, so is pure capitalism! Everyone keeps avoiding the middle ground between the various kinds of government, but I think it should be explored. I think it is just a question of degrees (the extent to which a shift is made).
August 18th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
Whoa whoa whoa…we don’t want any voices of REASON on here! We’ve always been a blend of SocioCapitalism (Capitocialism?) and I believe it should, and always will, stay that way. I’m a bigger fan of a more left-leaning approach though. Every other country out there that is seems to be doing a helluva lot better than us! But I’ll save my “Viva La Revolucion!!” speeches for some other time, I’m on a 2-day hangover and it hurts!
August 26th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
I guess you could ask almost any other western society how they are doing with socialized medicine. They dont have as high as infant mortality rate as we do, they are running a well balanced country, and their system pays for itself. Have to understand that if you raise the poverty level up and provide a better life for them, they are less likely to go to harsher ways of life. When your poor you have nothing else to look forward to.
August 27th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
[...] well. Just saw it five minutes ago, and believe it is better at explaining than my now infamous “privatization” comic [...]
August 30th, 2009 at 4:31 am
i’m with ya. the version of this argument that i have been using is property rights. i’m strong, smart, and well-armed; how dare you expect me to subsidize protection of your personal safety and property rights? if you don’t want to be held up, robbed, and murdered, why, you’d better hire yourself a thug or two, pinko.
August 31st, 2009 at 10:43 pm
Every system of government/economics eventually fails. All you people who are spouting this nonsense about failed socialism/communism have forgotten that Monarchies existed much, much, much longer than our current form of government has existed. There were failed democracies in Greece. 225 years is not a very long time in the span of human history.
September 1st, 2009 at 12:20 pm
As a Brit I find this whole debate utterly mystifying. Healthcare is a right. It’s a necessity for basic human dignity. The idea that in such a rich nation children frequently suffer and die because their parents can’t afford to pay a private company to cover them against ill-health and accident is grotesque, barbaric and ridiculous. It makes America look awful and Americans look idiotic in the eyes of the rest of the world. (CF That stupid article about how Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have survived in Britain when in fact he is British and is treated by the NHS).
Someone will probably quote Daniel Hannon now as an opposing Brit. Daniel Hannon is considered a ring-wing loony of epic proportions in the UK and in fact is only accepted in his party because he makes the rest of them look moderate and reasonable in comparison. Quoting Dan as a representative of British views on the NHS is like quoting Lindsay Lohan as a representative of America views on modesty and sobriety.
The number of NHS treatments I’ve had in my life is huge between being born(!), paediatric care and health visiting, inoculations, infections, dental, orthodontics including an operation, childhood eye care, contraception, pap smears and other routine checks, out of hours care (twice), an ambulance to emergency (once) and goodness knows what else. They’ve all been at the hands of professional, well-trained, pleasant people in clean appropriate well-equipped surroundings. I am healthy and happy.
Not to mention the excellent care my mum got for her bowel cancer including major surgery, she’s still fit and well 15 yrs later. Ditto my dad when he had his stroke three years ago he has no paralysis and very few other problems. He takes lots of meds now but doesn’t have to pay for any of them because he’s just getting back what he’s paid in tax during his life. The NHS is not perfect but don’t believe the hype. It’s still pretty damn good.
Socialised healthcare is not a menace to your society. Your insurance companies are. Well done SDJC.
September 3rd, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Wow, way to cause a stir haha.
This was an awesome comic, in my book. Very accurate. In fact, I pretty much love all the comix I’ve seen thus far. You are totally added to my blogroll
September 4th, 2009 at 6:33 am
Why thank you!
September 7th, 2009 at 1:00 am
wow, i love this, im 23, I goto grad school at ASU, and yes, I pay for it myself, and yes I work for a good company (godaddy.com) who provides me with free healthcare….best part? they hire off the streets, no post HS edu required…maybe some people should take responsibility for themselves and stop asking me to pay their bills.
September 28th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
dear lord you all need to wake up. I live in the UK were we have had socialised heathcare since the end of WW2, as a result hundreds of thousands of lives have been saved and at minimal cost to the taxpayer. Having free healthcare is freedom, for many, paying for healthcare means a life of bondage.if it were not for the NHS my mother would be caring for my sister who is physically disabled, all of her life as we would not be able to afford halthcare. We all work hard. But not everyone has the luxury of a high salary even in the most useful of proffesions. your so brainwashed its disgusting. I cannot beleive people canbe so unashamadly selfish
September 29th, 2009 at 12:29 am
JMF, I completely agree with you. I have some quotes I think all you people pro-Obama’s health care plan should read:
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cu…pidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” C S Lewis
“There is nothing more unequal than the equal treatment of unequal people.” — Thomas Jefferson
“Charity is injurious unless it helps the recipient to become independent of it.”-John D. Rockefeller
“I believe in the dignity of labor, whether with head or hand; that the world owes no man a living but that it owes every man an opportunity to make a living.” – Rockefeller
October 6th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
HAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh you americans, your always so funny
October 13th, 2009 at 4:17 am
what some of you are failing to realize is that you already are paying for people who can’t afford health insurance. The reason E.R. bills are so high is because everyone who goes to the E.R. and doesn’t have insurance gets treated anyway including illegals. More often than not they can’t or won’t pay those bills out of pocket so the hospital ups the cost of the bills on other people who have insurance to cover the cost.
October 13th, 2009 at 4:38 am
Yelena ,
I have something for you to read
Why socialism works by Albert Einstein
http://www.monthlyreview.org/598einstein.php
October 24th, 2009 at 8:07 am
Interesting… I am not US American, but I have been to the US and I have worked with US Americans many years in Europe. One thing I would like to say is that the discussion above reflects my experience with many conservative US citizens. They simply come across as tremendously egoistic.
Several people above ask: “Why would I pay for you? Get a job!”
Well, why do we do it in so many places in Europe? Because we care for each other. And because we realize that it is the humane thing to do to help others in need. I am surprised that it is the christian right that is least compassionate when it comes to the topic of “social healthcare”.
Another reason we do it is simply that you never know when you could be the one who needs some help. And if you do you will be glad that you agreed to have a system that helps people help each other. So in the end social healthcare is a way to help yourself.
A last thing that is interesting in this discussion in the US is the paranoia of the term “social”. It really sound incredibly brainwashed and frankly stupid if people write things like “now socialism, tomorrow communism and then our freedom is gone”. As someone pointed out correctly above many of the countries in Europe actually have a higher degree of freedom no matter how you define freedom.
For instance: we have more paid holidays and time off, shorter working hours, more paid time with our newborn babies, more freedom of the press (indeed, go google it- but sure, these stats are all rigged by US haters- your response to every criticism I guess) and a political system that enables us to participate much more efficiently in politics than your de-facto two-party system.
Most of my friends would never move to the US. Why? Not because they hat you guys, in fact, since Obama it is possible to at least like you again, but because you are so damn egoistic. You guys are scary. Fortunately there are some reasonable people as well. I am just afraid, they may not be enough.